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Topic: Tell us Wot You Think! - Building The World

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Tell us Wot You Think! - Building The World

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Ohh, I see. That . . . may not be a good idea for certain stories (real world plus sci-fi plus high fantasy plus cartoon dystopia in the same world?), and would become problematic with an influx of users crowding it. Why not instead allow users to create continents/worlds in the same way other MMOs let them create guilds (or perhaps servers would be a better analogy), with a limited number of plots for users to claim, granted they fit the theme? In essence, those sharing a world would share the same "canon."



-- Edited by revereche on Monday 23rd of April 2012 06:12:11 PM

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Hi guys! 

This is a long post - tl;dr: We are working on map design, we want your thoughts, and we are making some code sketches of how it might work which you will soon be able to play with. xx

We’ve been working hard on the next step in our design - the persistent over-world which defines the context within which your stories will have meaning. It’s a complex design challenge with a lot of different factors at play.

For instance: The original build of The Written World, some five years old now, was mapped on two levels, by continent and by island/landmass.




Each island was a single screen, a tile based map with a land-mass drawn onto it. Players could add locations to islands, and locations were containers for characters and objects. It was a pretty robust system, but it also placed a constraint on the sorts of stories people could tell. It also failed to engage its audience - we found interest in the system bottomed out after a while. A lot of the thought and attention we have put into story building and story writing represent our attempts to learn from that, but we also think the map system may have been a culprit.

We sat down and listed the problems our map building had to solve:

  • Our map must offer a sense of place and context to stories.
  • Our map must be meaningful - iconic visuals are fine but our map is the territory it represents, and as such it must display enough meaning to be satisfactory in representing a world.
  • Our map must allow for a profusion of different scales: stories take place over wildly different amounts of physical space. Some may progress over whole continents, while others might take place in a single room. Our map has to allow both of these stories to exist.
  • Our map must allow for a profusion of different genres: we want people to be as comfortable writing a murder-mystery set in wartime Berlin as they are a fantasy epic, or a hard sci-fi, or a piece about a guy who lives in a village and falls in love. How can we provide all of these story types with a world to inhabit, without making that world meaningless?
  • Our world map must meet up with our story-maps: the map of the entire world and the map of each individual story must be made of the same sort of stuff.
  • Our map must have ludic meaning and consequence - our map building and story-writing experiences are intrinsically tied together. How can we make sure that maps which are representations of written stories have gameplay meaning, while still allowing people to write what they want, when they want? Gameplay is often about providing well-designed constraints - how can we make sure these constraints still invite creative and varied writing?


It’s a hefty set of challenges - which means our solutions are going to be fun to craft. We started looking for cases of other people trying to solve this map-is-the-territory-and-the-narrative problem. We checked out a lot of different data-visualisation techniques and a great number of actual maps, from the old to the new, but our first flash of inspiration came from checking out old video game maps at the fantastic vgmaps.com. Something struck us about the empty, uninhabited maps of old 16-bit era platform games. These were narratives, they read left to right like a story and they were visually a mixture of the iconic and the representative. They allowed for multiple scales and even for narrative spreads which end where they begin. We started to look at comic books, tapestries  and adventure games in a new light - here’s a format which users can re-skin easily, are familiar with, and which allows us to connect up building stories, writing stories and mapping stories. We began sketching designs.


 

We’re picturing something which hooks up with an overworld map - imagine something like Super Mario World on the snes - stories, like pathways, will cluster around entrance points on the overworld. You’ll be able to explore them like comics, visual narratives with their text attached, each reading from left to right with encounters and cast laid out in narrative sequence.


While we’re preparing to commit on a decision here, we’ve also been building prototypes. Little code sketches of how the system, or similar systems might work. One of those sketches has begun to turn into something coherent.



This offers us a glimpse of an alternative system. Here we map things top down, and make the map intrinsic to story-writing. It’s a two player game, with some board game mechanics at play, as well as story-writing. Each player has a character to control, and either player can control any of the antagonist characters on the map, which are loaded in based on what type of story is being played - for example a heroic epic might contain a monster, an ally, a traitor and a hero. Each action taken on the board takes a turn. Play is split up into narrative sections - ‘The Call’, ‘The Road’, ‘The Summit’. Players ‘win’ by completing the objectives set out by encounter cards - for example ‘A Home Destroyed’ might require players to escape their starting tile and be the first to occupy a safe tile, avoiding monsters and obstacles along the way.

Something like this has a much more regimented structure than anything we currently have planned for The Written World proper. We’ll show it to you when it’s a little more complete and ask you whether you would be interested in seeing us move more in this direction. I’d love to hear your opinions now!



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Oooh~ I really like this idea =D Very nice for LotR sort of stories especially.



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Thanks Revereche - can you be more specific? Which idea is your favourite? Are there any you don't like?

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Personally, I'd regiment the map system into different types, which the author can opt in or out of. The smaller scale DnD-esque tile system would be great for a story dealing heavily with battle, for instance, but would do nothing but distract in, say, a historical drama. However, a broader, more cartographically typical map would serve the second type of story well, in providing the "reading" player a way to skip between flashbacks set in Germany, France etc. Aesthetic is very important!

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Agreed aesthetic is important!
The trouble with having two completely different map types (aside from doubling the work load!) is it challenges our ability to create a consistent world for everybody to add to..

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Oh hey, I remember chatting with you about this - I must say, you can describe it much better than I can XD

It would be awesome if that tile-based map on the final screenshot updated automatically depending on what the players type (for example, if the hero mentions an item nearby, their character would move next to it). Have you considered this, or would it be a manual/static thing?

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I love maps... I mean I stumbled on this site in ... Norway? Denmark? somewhere a few years ago that had scanned in the collections of city maps from around the world from the 14th - 19th century. Awesome stuff. These days all you have to do is google something like Ancient City Maps and the first fifty images will be amazing. Where was I going with this?

Oh right... So instead of deciding on a box system or an island map area... is it possible to have a square or hexagon shaped series of connected areas and the users could provide an image for the background that could be sized appropriately? Whether the background is a image of the Milky Way in an interstellar soap opera or a Mars bar in a genocidal ant war you just need to be able to map points on the grid rather than worry about what the picture the grid is on looks like.

If the player moves to a marked point on the grid that can lead them to a second map or a sub map that uses the same grid system but just has a different background so the scale can be completely different. If you click on the chunk of nougat you are brought to a small hollowed shell within the Mars Bar where you can interact with chunks of.. well whatever is in a Mars bar or possibly click on another exit to another map that is Continent scale = in this case a small patch of grass along the highway. Possibly with a big wavy grey strip along one side with the words Here There Be Volkswagons..

The biggest problem I see is user submission of imagery for maps. That could be a NO for security and / or ratings issues. Maybe if you had a stockpile of images to choose from they could work from there? That way you aren't hosting Dingus' adventures in Boobie Land, copyright infringement with photos from other artists, jpegs, tiffs, whatever loaded with killer worms that want nothing more than to hack your system into a pile of sludge. So I'd vote for stockpile.

Is this at all what you were looking for or did I completely miss the point? Wouldn't be the first time.

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Not sure I fully understand the model, so possibly this is all nonsense, but I'm wondering how this fits the requirement of allowing different genres - the prototype looks great for the fantasy genre, but not such a good fit for other styles (as revereche points out), while the idea of using platformer-style maps would likely lead to broad representation rather than anything meaningful for a number of styles of story (how, for example, would you make a story like - choosing something most people can relate to - Star Wars fit that sort of map? the leaps from space to several different planets of wildly different environments, and of course the death star would seem rather difficult to represent in a single side-scrolling map).

meamgenius has already suggested my preference - hex maps, a la TBS games like Civilization. As for the scalability, I'd look at something like Spore (once you get to the space-era): a galactic map, zooming in to (not necessary to animate: I hate when designers waste precious coding hours - and system resources - on making functionality look overly pretty) a system map, and then planetary maps following the hex style... Once you're at that level, smaller room or plot maps would begin to fit*.

Certainly to begin with you wouldn't actually need a galactic map (might end up looking like a bit too much of a blank canvas), but having a couple of different planets/worlds would be a neat way of spreading out the different threads and genres (planets/worlds needn't be exclusively one genre, but would be an easy way for readers to hone in on the types of stories they like to read). I think it's also important to have this separation between different planets/worlds, as, if/when the number of stories begins to grow, you're faced with either the maps becoming incomprehensibly cluttered, or individual locations hosting long lists of stories which then rather defeat the point of having a nice GUI in the first place.

*Of course, the biggest problem with plot maps, and trying to map narrative before it's been created is the danger of stymieing creativity: there's many models you could follow (basic classical structure, beat sheets, etc) and there's no reason why users couldn't create excellent stories through those models, but equally some excellent stories simply would not fit. You could perhaps provide the narrator with a long list of the elements commonly found on beet sheets (or maybe Polti's 36 dramatic situations) and they can then drag and drop the ones they want onto the map, which becomes the plot outline...

So as for the primary question whether I would be interested in seeing you move more in this [more regimented] direction, I think I'd have to say no, I like the idea of it being as open ended as possible.

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@revereche I really like the idea of allowing groups of writers to set up their own land masses... How would you see the process of building a landmass going?

@Hunter: Having the map update according to what happens in the story is a possibility, though of course will always be subject to the human limit - we can only parse for so many different key phrases and animate accordingly, so it wouldn't be the most flexible system. At the moment that prototype animates the other way around - you choose a place to move to/thing to interact with and then describe the movement/interaction, following which your character moves to the appropriate location.

@meamgenius Yes this is what we're asking for, this kind of feedback - thanks! As for your suggestion - it's certainly possible to allow people to tile/texture their own maps. We'll certainly be offering some level of customisation, but quite how much is uncertain. Allowing people to set up their own multiple-level maps is a possibility, though allowing users full freedom in the z axis might make for some very confusing maps.

@bish - this is great feedback - thanks! We think the side-scroller maps allow for the representation of a story like star wars because they are not tied to consistent scales - one scene could be in a corridor, the next in outer space - allowing users to texture and build these maps themselves means they can do what they like. Because it is not directly spatial but abstract a side scroller map could start and end in the same location without being a loop - the x axis here represents /time/ in the story, not physical space. It might be a hard concept to grasp though?

As for structuring story - we're working with something based on campbells monomyth and polti's 36 dramas at the moment, a sort of synthesis of these two frameworks.

I'm curious as to what manner of interaction with the map you are envisaging? How do you imagine these maps are built? How do you imagine 'hero' and 'god' players might interact with them?

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PS: great comments from everyone, thanks for taking the time!

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I'm keeping the idea of map-building fairly simple in my head, imagining a 2D graph divided into more grids depending on the level of scale needed - the only difference between a DnD-style tile system and a more typical map would be whether the separate grids were visible over the image (given that only two people ever see the images in question, I can't think copyright would be an issue unless a story were released for use by others - in this case, image limitations should be enforced).

As bish said, some stories will involve markedly more 3D environments. However, even these would be, as you said, representable in a 2D context. Given that the majority of visuals involved in storytelling are to be imagined, I don't think this would be a problem - the maps are just there as ways to keep track of information.

I think Second Life and similar games give a pretty good example of how community world-building could be handled =)

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Had a chat with Toby last night, lots of thoughts swilling around so apologies to all for the length of this post... tl;dr - either map the world (good: more immersive experience/setting the scene etc, bad: longer set-up time for narrator, less clear how to progress through the story) or map the plot (good: easier for players to understand where to take things, bad: less open gameplay); trying to do both with the same visual would be confusing. 

@WWHQ

I get the idea of a 2D side-scroller allowing the same location to repeat without having to physically (on the map) return to the same place, but with this arises the question - why have a time axis for a map? If you're solely aiming to 'map' the plot, then something that looks nothing like a map would be preferable, since anything else could become confusing. If you want something that adds value to the sense of immersion, some kind of physical representation of the world in which the story takes place makes sense, but a clear representation of time/story progression becomes a confusing additional element (and possibly foists too much of a structure upon the characters).

In my view it might be best to have an actual isometric map that illustrates locations (and characters in those locations) - as determined by the narrator/God at the start - but with constraints on what locations a character may visit at a given stage in the story (again defined by a narrator): kind of the same system as old-school RPGs used to have. In this way, using an isometric map gives a player/character a strong sense of the over-arching world that the story takes place in - Toby and I talked about having generic graphics for home/school/pub/work/etc buildings, which could potentially be changed through skins to better suit different genres/eras. I've got some more ideas about what you could do with that kind of system, but that's going to require some thinking and - more difficult - drawing time to really show what I'm getting at. I'll send a PM (to spare my blushes and avoid co-opting this thread any more) when I get the time this weekend.

The alternative (as I see it) is to go with representing the plot visually, and throwing out the notion of giving any real indication of space/time. In this case, I don't think there's really any need to give the players story cues beyond the current event they are writing and the next step (chapter, encounter, whatever) for them to aim towards. I'm not a huge fan of this idea, but it does have big advantages - if you dispense with having a single graphic that represents the entire plot from turn one, you open the story up much more in terms of flexibility, since narrators could perhaps set chapter goals ad hoc. Also this would be graphically much easier, since you could have a bunch of clip-art style images representing various possible goals (get the girl, start a fight, etc). I was talking about this with my partner last night and the best stylistic idea (I think) we had was cave paintings, since these are open ended enough to signify all sorts of variations on story elements, while appealing to a primal understanding of pictures following one another to tell a story.

The major downside that I can see is that for character-players this might feel more proscriptive, whereas the freedom of the narrator/God to introduce more chaotic elements would invite less causation in stories, leading (probably) to a less fulfilling finished story (ie Oedipus kills his father, marries his mother, but then discovers it's all just been a dream while he slept aboard the Titanic).

Lastly (very long post - sorry, I've already cut out huge chunks to send another time), a brief argument against narrators 'mapping' a plot before a story begins: In conventional story writing, this is almost a necessity, for all but the most gifted of story tellers. However, my dream ideal for The Written World is a fun collaborative game that obviates that need - in my own half-witted attempts at writing, I'm generally comfortable creating a world, describing the locations and establishing the characters and their motivations. What I'm not so comfortable with is plotting out a series of events that makes the actual story. What I'd like is a game where I could set-up a world and a cast, and then watch as other people play out a story within those confines - having to plot out 'protagonist does A, then goes to B where they meet C, who tells them about D' doesn't appeal to me as much, because then I get little more value from playing the game than I would simply sitting at a desk and trying to bash out a Great Novel. Proscriptive plotting is limiting for player-characters and possibly discouraging for narrators, so whatever you decide to do regarding the visuals, try to avoid anything that requires too much plotting by narrators.



-- Edited by bish on Wednesday 25th of April 2012 03:00:38 PM

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Have you seen the app Biophylia with music by Björk and pictures made by artists? It starts with the universe and each song has his own world. I like the structure, and maybe it will inspire you. I think the start has to be a world that invites you to be there. As an artist I create virtual worlds, they bring you in an enviremont that encourages you to make it your world. Just a board as playground would not be very inspiring I think.

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